Hokay, common usage and its corruption of dictionaries which ought to be holding the line against the slow but steady decline of the English language into the gutter rather than acquiescing to every trendy or lazy speech pattern I mean what are we paying these guys for if all they’re doing is letting us tell them what to write in their dictionaries aside, the word forte is derived from the French, meaning “strong,” not the Italian, meaning “loud.” So it should be pronounced “fort” not “fortay.” Just “fort.”
If you’re running around saying “fortay” then the terrorists have won.
[this post updated after helpful error-checking by my lovely bride]
[[and after spell-checking by S. Weasel]]
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November 10, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Well. Another example of my mother’s skill at foreign languages, debunked. Though I pretty much developed the necessary skepticism the day she called me up, all excited, because she’d made a “kwitch lorraine.” No lie.
Good cook, bad linguist.
November 10, 2006 at 6:29 pm
I don’t know geoff. Both may be acceptable.
I think the original name for the piano was “pianoforte” which means soft and loud in Italian. Other keyboard instruments of that time did not have much capability to play soft/loud. So to set it apart from say, the harpsichord and the celesta, they called it pianoforte.
November 10, 2006 at 6:46 pm
I’m not sure that I follow your point, KC – you’re saying forte is Italian for loud also. The fault is probably mine, though, since I had the French and Italian switched in an earlier version of this post (that’s the correction my wife noted, much to my immediate and profound embarrassment).
But the case for the pronounciation of forte is best made in the excellent book, “There is no Zoo in Zoology.” It’s a book which covers the most common pronounciation errors of less common words, such as flaccid. Unfortunately my copy is buried in some box that I haven’t yet unpacked, or I’d quote the relevant passage.
November 10, 2006 at 7:27 pm
Indeed. Some people erroneously place an accent-mark on the “e” of “forte”, which is also wrong.
“Fort” when it means “skill”, “forteh” when it means “loud” (mainly used by musicians).
November 10, 2006 at 7:29 pm
So, is “pronounciation” a running gag, or a typo? I’d hate to be unhip and miss the joke.
November 10, 2006 at 7:32 pm
You know, I wish it was. But in fact I’m running on little sleep, I’m running a bunch of analyses, and somewhere within the past 24 hours I got it mixed up in my head. Thanks for your gentle but belated correction.
November 10, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Hey, S.Weasel,what does the S. stand for?
November 10, 2006 at 11:57 pm
But if it stands for “Smart” then never mind.
November 11, 2006 at 12:07 am
Maus:
Be polite or your Internet access will be rescinded. “S.” stands for “Stoat.” You ought to get along with S. Weasel, since he likes mustelids also.
Now look up “rescinded.” And yes, I mean it.
November 11, 2006 at 4:41 am
Maus:
I deleted your comment to KevlarChick. You are not being sufficiently deferential to your elders. Now look up “deferential.”
November 11, 2006 at 5:36 am
Cache as in “weapons cache”, I always thought it was pronounced “cash”, but I heard it pronounced “cash-ay” on the military channel the other night.
April 1, 2008 at 8:14 am
My understanding is that in Italian, “forte” means both “loud” (“fort” in French) and “strong” (the French “forte”). If that is true, then all common English usage has done is replace a French loan-word with an Italian loan-word. Is that so bad?
Anyway, if we were going to pronounce it the French way, it would be more like “for.” The English pronunciation “fort” is presumably one of those charming British usages where they don’t want to admit they’ve borrowed a word from the French, so they pronounce it the British way (e.g. “valet”).
April 1, 2008 at 11:53 am
My understanding of the Italian “strong” variant is that it means strong in the sense of powerful or loud, not strength. But that’s moot, since the derivation is from the French anyway.
Is that so bad?
Well, there’s always the right way and wrong way. Linguists agree that the pronunciation “fort” is strictly correct, though many have caved to the “fortay” abomination.
Anyway, if we were going to pronounce it the French way, it would be more like “for.”
Presumably that’s why the “e” was added at the end.
April 3, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Linguists agree that the pronunciation “fort” is strictly correct.
Linguists are scientists. They study how things are, not how they ought to be. Perhaps you mean “language educators” or “language journalists.”
April 3, 2008 at 1:13 pm
My apologies. Etymologists agree that the derivation of the word is from the French and that the original pronunciation was “fort.” Some sources, such as the American Heritage Usage Panel, have thrown in the towel and now recommend “fortay” as the preferred pronunciation. I think that’s unfortunate.
April 3, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Based on my two whole weeks of studying conversational Italian from a phrasebook, I gather that the Italian pronunciation of “forte” would actually be more like “for-teh,” not “for-tay.” So we would probably Americanize it to “fortuh,” like we did with pizze (peets-tsyeh) -> pizza (peez-zuh). Italian doesn’t seem to have the schwa sound.
April 3, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Also:
You ought to get along with S. Weasel, since he likes mustelids also.
*giggles*
April 3, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Yeah, yeah. I don’t know of anybody who thought she was a woman before Aceapalooza. As I said earlier today at NiceDeb’s, “weasel” isn’t the kind of moniker most women would choose.
April 3, 2008 at 8:39 pm
I didn’t either. I was laughing at all of us in general. In retrospect, it was obvious, but lots of stuff is obvious in retrospect.
June 8, 2008 at 11:23 am
I DISAGREE THAT PIANO-FORTE is pronounced “piano-fort”. “The first pianofortes were made by Bartolomeo Cristofori, who began work on them in 1698. He was keeper of instruments at the Medici court in Florence and his invention, which he called ‘harpsichord with loud and soft’”–http://www.answers.com/topic/pianoforte?cat=entertainment Since the first pianofortes were made in Italy, they would be pronouced “for-teh” not “fort”. The 1913 edition of Webster’s dictionary does not have the “fort” pronunciation, but only the “for-teh” pronunciation.
June 8, 2008 at 11:25 am
Websters Dictionary 1913
Piano
(Pi*an”o Pi*an”o*for`te) n. [It. piano soft (fr. L. planus even, smooth; see Plain, a.) + It. forte strong, fr. L. fortis ] (Mus.) A well-known musical instrument somewhat resembling the harpsichord, and consisting of a series of wires of graduated length, thickness, and tension, struck by hammers moved by keys.
bibliomania.com/2/3/257/frameset.html
Since musical terms come from Latin (not French), it is even more likely that the proper pronunciation was always “for-teh” — two syllables as in Latin. That being said, it is not likely that in British-English in the 19th century that it was anglicized to “fort” as many foreign words have been for centuries.
June 8, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I DISAGREE THAT PIANO-FORTE is pronounced “piano-fort”.
Nobody ever said that it was.
June 9, 2008 at 11:34 am
The pronunciation of forte meant a great deal to my father (which explains why your wife was able to assist you w/ this issue — you’ll probably find her similarly helpful on the misuse of infer vs. imply and the meaning of the word “egregious”), so I learned all about this.
What I found frustrating was, the misproununciation was so widespread, that when I pronounced the word correctly, people thought I was the one mispronouncing it! I’m sure I tried once or twice to edify my audience by pointing out that no, it’s actually pronounced “fort” but ended up sounding like such a douche, that now I just avoid using the word.
June 9, 2008 at 11:43 am
but ended up sounding like such a douche…
An unfortunate side effect of trying to hold the line. I just can’t help cringing every time I hear it mispronounced by some yahoo who thinks he’s exhibiting some sort of sophistication.
I pretty much had “infer,” “imply,” and “egregious” nailed before I met her, but she’s invaluable in other regards.
June 9, 2008 at 1:11 pm
I got The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations by Charles Harrington Elster on your recommendation (I forgot where and when you recommended it). It’s a family favorite.
But I did realize that when we speak, we speak to be understood. If pronouncing something correctly detracts from our intent, and the audience focuses instead on our pronunciation (whether to correct it or decipher it), then it defeats the purpose of speaking.
And so I like the book but only for curiosity’s sake.
June 9, 2008 at 2:10 pm
And so I like the book but only for curiosity’s sake.
I look at it more as incitement to jihad.
June 9, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I agree about speaking to be understood, and if I did have to say forte out loud today, I’d probably say “for-tay” just for the sake of communication (with an “italicized” intonation that lets everyone know I’m hip).
June 9, 2008 at 3:17 pm
I simply avoid such words.
Yeah, I’m a coward.
September 3, 2008 at 10:34 am
It’s funny.. but when I say “my forte” (pronounced ‘fort’) people have no idea what I am talking about.. they invariably go.. oh you mean your “fortay!!” And I usually just give in!
I’d hate to see this word switch to forté jsut to accommodate all the people who say it wrong!!
Arrggh!
Now.. looking back at the earlier comments “There’s no zoo in zoology”… that one is great as well! So many people say zoo-ology!
Marina
http://www.hotforwords.com
September 4, 2008 at 12:46 am
I agree with Marina, for-tay for the win!
September 4, 2008 at 12:49 am
Who knows? What if everything that is pronounced the way it is by everyone today, is actually intended in a different way.
Kind of stretches your mind.